Early morning ethics

Philonous says (05:06): are you still awake? Archie says (05:06): yep Philonous says (05:07): just updated the blog Archie says (05:07): awesome man Philonous says (05:08): see if you recognise the pictures... Archie says (05:11): i cant say i do! Philonous says (05:11): oh, well the guy on the left is Baudrillard and the guy on the right is Grothendieck. Archie says (05:12): i see! ive only ever seen the guardian obituary picture of baudrillard Philonous says (05:12): yeah, I don't think it looks a whole lot like the other photos I've seen, but hey... so whadya think? Philonous says (05:13): sweet as pie? Archie says (05:14): about the pictures? i like them! i just need something interesting to write Philonous says (05:14): woah! that hasn't stopped me I've asked Le Fox to write something when she gets the chance she was going to write something on 'The Sartorialist' Philonous says (05:15): hey, do you know much about ethics? Archie says (05:16): well i only know the fundamental positions of certain philosophers and, of course, my own position why? Philonous says (05:16): I was just reading about consequentialism Philonous says (05:17): as opposed to deontological ethics Archie says (05:17): ultimately they all rest on a ridiculous idea Philonous says (05:17): say what?? Archie says (05:17): namely that you can measure an "outcome" Philonous says (05:17): mmm no not really Archie says (05:17): even an idea like "positive" Philonous says (05:17): deontological arguments are to do with duty and obligation Philonous says (05:18): well ok but the point is, they're a personal framework Archie says (05:18): of course Philonous says (05:18): so all you have to do is to be able to make personal judgements on these sorts of things Archie says (05:18): i have my own completely arbitrary ethical code Philonous says (05:18): mmm there's another position again are you a moral relativist? Archie says (05:19): i get called that a lot in debates Philonous says (05:19): mmm It is sort of an ivory tower of a position Archie says (05:19): yep but, so what? is there anything wrong with that? Philonous says (05:19): well yeah Archie says (05:19): "" Philonous says (05:20): I think that moral philosophy should be about trying to fit some axiomatic system to the every day process of making moral judgements so that when you find that your intuition fails you, you try and derive something concrete from your framework to help you out... Archie says (05:20): of course you think that - youre a mathematician whereas i think it should be based on an arbitrary set of values which is how it DOES function Philonous says (05:20): well yeah sure Philonous says (05:21): but those arbitrary values are exactly these axioms (if you're a relativist) Archie says (05:21): which was my point earlier if you are going to have "consequentialism", you might as well have "Archiecentricism" too Philonous says (05:21): well no, not really but if you're some sort of moral relativist then it's hardly conducive to the solution of conflicts Archie says (05:22): who said i wanted to solve conflicts? Philonous says (05:22): oh yeah, I forgot - you're a nihilist Archie says (05:22): not really Philonous says (05:22): hedonist? (and moral relativist) Archie says (05:22): i just find definitions of the virtue of these things of ideas a bit shakey at the very least, worth questioning Philonous says (05:23): agreed ok, so if you're going to get relativist on my ass, then you can climb back up into your ivory tower of theory Archie says (05:24): well hey, im not saying that i dont have a functioning ethical world view which values certain actions as "good" and others as "bad" that doesnt mean that im ready to reduce the patterns into fundamental axioms and call the whole thing a success Philonous says (05:24): ok, so your world view is essentially that there is no coherent axiomatic world view Philonous says (05:24): it's a 'take it as it comes' kinda thing Archie says (05:25): well theres obviously a philosophical sentiment and a seperate practical one Philonous says (05:25): hmm Archie says (05:25): which is where you might think im an idiot Philonous says (05:26): see I don't get it. I figure philosophy ought to be a little bit practical: I should be able to live by some world view which philosophy can provide (and if philosophy can't provide it, then by definition, my 'philosophy' is my world view) Archie says (05:26): im pretty sure you can - the only real question is why you dont... Philonous says (05:27): well I think it's either because language isn't complicated enough to capture what goes on in our heads (Wittgenstein can go suck an egg) or because we're not eloquent enough to be able to phrase it. Archie says (05:28): sure why not Philonous says (05:28): It sorta leads to the question - Is moral philosophy doomed? Philonous says (05:29): it seems like any personal moral philosophy has to be derived from someone's personal 'common sense'. But then maybe that's all there is to moral philosophy. Archie says (05:29): well thats my conclusion! Philonous says (05:29): hmmmm Philonous says (05:30): I don't like it Archie says (05:30): yeah its not a nice thought... Philonous says (05:31): So... I hear there's a black guy running for president...